Battle of Winwick Pass/Red Bank

[Steven Dowd]

Hi Oldnewt

Bodies... all the Scots ones are going to be in maybe a couple of largeish gravepits... I have a feeling, and its a vague one going back over 20 years ago, of somebody at a re-enactment hinting that he "knew" where they were, but wasn't saying. That may or may not be correct. Areas of rough uncultivated ground are the most likely, or otherwise unexplained "depressions" and "hollows".. Presumably Cromwell's men went the same way, as I don't know of any burial records for them.

A few years ago when we discussed this, Bob made a very good suggestion, the Hermitage Green Lane has a number of very old quarries, bronze aged, or Roman maybe, also the land overlooking Red Bank, below Cop Halt looks to have quarried cliff faces, Bob suggested that it would be relatively easy to put all the bodies into one of the quarries, and to scrape the top soil from the field above the quarry over the edge into it, to bury the bodies.

This would be a lot less hassle than burying by digging a pit, and remembering that because this battle was so mobile, being in Warrington by nightfall, that it was probably the locals that had to figure what to do with the bodies, and so a disused ancient quarry might look like a quick and handy spot.

Steven Dowd

[MRayner]

Certainly, I think the key to answering the questions about where the fighting actually took place would be with a systematic and widespread metal detector survey - this could also turn up some unexpected evidence, as I think Bob suggested happened at Naseby. What's also exciting about Winwick is that, when compared to other Civil War battles it was relatively straightforward (we think!) and so the evidence of shot and other finds should be easier to interpret than at some battles where figthing went back and forwards over the same ground several times during the course of the battle.

[oldnewt]

THe quarries sound very likely burial places. The locals would probably have removed anything of value, including clothing, and then buried both sides probably fairly indiscriminately. If the sdame thing happened as at Naseby, the New Model may have paid some locals to go round the battlefield recovering weapons. They paid so much per musket, as I recollect. Somewhere in the thousands of uncatalogued State Pepers in the National Archives, there may well be an inventory

[MRayner]

That's right Old Newt - In Glenn Foard's book 'Naseby: the decisive campaign' he says that as well as the army and County Committe collecting much after the battle:
'warrants had to be sent out to relevant parts of the county 'about gathering up arms after the Naseby fight...'(from Defoe, D 1724 'Tour through Great Britain') This must have been a very substantial task because a number of different people were paid to complete the work. On 1st July 1645 a man was paid by the County Committee for himself and five others 'collecting up Armes after the fight in Naseby feild and likewise for expenses upon Cartes in conveying the same to this Garrison £20.' (From Martin, B 1763 'The Natural History of England'.) Later a certain Mr Palmer was paid six shillings for six days work fetching arms and carts from Naseby field and then on 5th July 1645 Henry Divers was paid for his expenses 'finding and bringing arms to and carts to this garrison after ye late fight in Naseby field £3/0/2d.' (From 'The new British Traveller' 1819 vol 3.)' (page 318) There could well be further details in the Exchequer records, as there are for the expenses incurred in caring for the wounded after Naseby.

[She]

Re -

Certainly, I think the key to answering the questions about where the fighting actually took place would be with a systematic and widespread metal detector survey

I would most certainly be up for this, but what do you do if the local farmers object. How do you plan for something like this. Does someone project manage the survey and contact all land owners with a proposal. Im sure many of our site members would volunteer.

[bob]

just a quick reply, today Russ dropped off his hand drawn maps, he has asked me not to show the marking as yet on the site, he is worried about night hawkers and land owners, but i can say the most shot is found in field 9 as we would expect,
the mention of a running battle seems to be consistent with shot found along hedgerows, and he showed a very nice section of lead which had the old House of Leeds Crest on it.
it will take me a little while to piece it together, by then i hope Russ will have got the OK off everyone.
Bob

[oldnewt]

Good, that bears out what we have been thinking. You are right to be cautious, Bob. A few years back somebody released a CD of a survey map they had done of finds on Marston Moor. The result was that the key sites there were ransacked by nighthawkers.

Getting an organised search might be difficult,. It would really need the County Archaelogist to be on board . They could liase with the landowner - certainly for Field 9. Would also help if the Battlefields Trust can help get the site registered. tyrouble is, so far as I know, there isn't asny legal pressure which can be used to allow a survey. It all has to be good will. However registration of the site gives some, albeit limited, protection.

[MRayner]

Yes, any survey/metal-detecting would need the landowners' permission. As mentioned earlier, I don't want to jump the gun (although finding a few old ones would be fine!) but it's possible funding could be got for this, espeically if the site is registered. The Battlefields Trust would, I am sure, be happy to co-ordinate and project lead/manage, but they would depend on local detectorists in partnership - the most important thing would be to add to our knowledge of the site, while at the same time, as Bob suggests, hoping that the site doesn't fall victim to nighthawks. Similar projects have led to the major reasessment of Bosworth and have added a lot to our understanding of Edgehill.

Hopefully, registration would be the neext step to achieving this.

[oldnewt]

May have stumbled across a new , to me anyway, Roundhead account of the battle. In another book there is a brief quote from the diary of a Major Sanderson, describing apparently, how four troops of horse from Twisleton and Lilburne's New Model cavalry regiments "careered up to Winwick", ahead of the retreating Scots and hindered their retreat, then pursued them as far as Warringon.

The diary has been published, and I've ordered the book from the library...may prove to be nothing new, but i'll post the full quote when I get it, and we can chew it over

[bob]

Interesting,

Model cavalry regiments "careered up to Winwick", ahead of the retreating Scots and hindered their retreat,

would it suggest which route they took?
Bob

[oldnewt]

That's what i'm hoping the full version may do.

[Steven Dowd]

Bob, Since the Horse from Cromwells force attacked from the Hermitage Green end of the battlefield having bypassed the deep valley, it might be that they went direct to Winwick by the old road route, and made their stand by the spot where you said that Russ has mad a few musketball finds, Russ could have been finding musketballs that missed these troops and landed behind them in that field, if those Horse troops had taken that old road to Winwick.

Steven Dowd

[bob]

Hi Steve, i noticed you mentioned musket ball finds, in fact he has found Scottish coins dating to Charles 1.
that would be in field 4 on the map.
Bob

[oldnewt]

Could be right Steve... That brief extract I've seen so far about them "Careering" does sound as if they were going along a road at a fair lick to cut off the Scots retreat (or the retreat of some of them). Lets hope the full account will tell us more.

[oldnewt]

Well, here's Major John Sanderson's full account. It was in a letter to his father, written in Warrington on 20th August 1648.

It covers the whole campaign, but I'll give it from when he reached Wigan (with his spelling):

"Saterday 19 of August, our Regiment tooke the Van again, because no other Regiment was neere, we advanced to Wiggon, where we tooke four Colloneells, viz. Colonel Hamelton of Gateside, Collonnell Urrey, Collonnell Innes and another; we slew many men in Wiggon and abundance all the way, till we engaged the reare of their foot at a Wood neer Winwicke; The Earl of Roxburgh's Brigade, commanded by Cllonnell Douglas, Buckleugh's Regiment, General Adjutant Turner's Regiment (who was Sincler's Major) th e Lord Hume's Regiment, and some of other regiments, they stood stoutly to it for three houres; we lost some men, every Troop of our Regiment lost two; but at length, by God's goodnesse to us, the Scots run, and my Troop and Captain Lilburnes were placed outmost; on the left Wing next to us was Colonel Twizleton's Regiment, two of their Troops, and our two, carreered up to Winwicke Towne, got before the Scots, and stopt them, so that many hundreds of them were slaine there.

In the Field and the Towne was slain in that three houres about 1600 men, and a whole Church full of prisoners takjen, we think there coould be no less than fifteen hundred Prisoners in the Church.

We pursued to Warrington Bridge, which the Scots kept till oour body came up. It is wonderful to see how many are slain all the way .... all the high wayes, Corne fields, Meddows, Woods and Ditches strewed with dead bodies.

So soone as our Army drew up neer Warrington, Lieutenant General Bayley and the rest of the Scots officers sent to treat with Lieutenant Generall Cromwell, and have yeelded themselves and all their foot Army prisoners, and are now in safe custody."

So there is some useful detail here of the units involved, which I will sort out later. Lillburnes Regiment was Robert Lilburne's, part of the Northern Parliamentarian army commanded by John Lambert, and I think Twisleton's was as well. A troop would have had a regulation strength of 100.

So it would seem that Sanderson is talking about that advance, sounds like a gallop, of Cromwell's cavalry, guided by local men, along the lane from Hermitage Green to Winwick. What is interesting is that it seems that the Scots infantry, or a lot of them, didn't fight a rearguard action at Winwick Church. Instead their retreat or flight from Red Bank was blocked at WInwick by around 400 Roundhead cavalry,who got there first, and the Scots were sandwiched between them and the advancing infantry of Pride etc. And apparently cut to pieces just outside Winwick ( Winwick Green, and the neighbouring fields?) And the prisoners put in the church rather than making a last stand there.

Interesting also that Sanderson says the battle (presumably all of it) lasted three hours. Cromwell said "many hours"

More on the units he mentions later. But food for thought for now