Ancient Wooden Houses & Golborne Hall

[bob]

Above on Steve's tithe map of 1839, there is a building that is considered to be a barn, maybe because its by a field called Barnmedo , but to me it looks like a cathedral barn, they are only found down south so i doubt it being that, it looks to me as though it could have been a very large oak built building that at that time could have been dilapidated as it may have been hundreds of years old and only fit for use as a barn, could it be that the owners built 2 new houses on the land,
it is strange to see the water course and the road shape around it, maybe it could have had a moat there at some time,
and if you look at the 3 cottages and compare it to the building i have now put in brown, you can see just how big that would have been, i think that is a contender for Oak Tree House.

blowup tithe oak tree.jpg

Bob

[Steven Dowd]

Bob

This old man story of yours, if the man saw this building, means that even if the man was 100 yrs old, and you spoke to him in 1960, he could only have meant a building that existed from 1860 onwards, lets say he only remembers it from aged 10, this means the building must have been standing in 1870, which means your wooden building most likely must be on the 1880s OS Map, otherwise, your looking at structures which the man couldn't possibly have seen, which means your relying on third hand pub talk.

The basic problem here is, that you are refusing to read the Baines text, that it is the Oak Tree, your reading it asif its a different house or building called the Oak Tree, and thats the problem

I read it as it 'is the Oak Tree'

Your going around every unknown building on the map picking at random buildings that now down't exist, which the man in the pub could not have possibly have ever seen, saying this and that is what your old man meant, and which Baines mentioned as the older 'Oak Tree House' and I am saying, your wrong... that Baines just means 'The Oak Tree' which did exist on that spot when Baines wrote his text..

We have other texts, which describe this area, by locals, that say, the current Oak Tree building is a rebuilt ot replaced older Wooden one,

My point is that its the same building on the same site

Barns on maps do look like they have porches, they are not always rectangular, and you colouring the barn a reddish colour, rather than leave it the original grey as per the map actual colour is just trying to fog the arguement..

Coles book says this with regards to Newton in 1745..

Oak Tree Hall (or House), which is supposed to have stood on the site of the
Oak Tree Inn, is not shown on the Map—it must have been 'demolished before
1745. It was a fabric of timber work, and at one time belonged to the Brether.
ton's, of Hey. (Baines.) The field upon which Brooks' Square was formed
was, however, known as the Oak Tree Meadow before the Inn existed.

The Oak tree Inn does show on the 1745 Map, cole is saying that any previous 'House' is not shown...

So how did your man in the pub know about something that didn't exist in 1745 ?

Cole also says about the Oak Tree...

The Oak Tree (or Royal Oak) Inn was then an old white building with thee
old cottages adjoining, 'approached from the road by three or four stone steps.

Cole also mentions older cottages at the Oak Tree end of the High Street pulled down to allow modern buildings to be built...

Then there were the very old thatched white cottages at the Crow Lane End
of High Street - which have stood there close on three hundred years. Where
the Police Station now stands was an old white cottage. Here and there were
scattered other cottages, since pulled down to make room for modern houses
Each house had its history—here with a shop, there a house n which a weaver
worked, others were occupied by hedgers, ditchers, and thatchers who worked
on the estate.

Bob, loads of buildings are on the corner of plots or corners of road junctions...

if so i will disagree, not many BOSs (buildings of significance) ( just made that up so i cant get shouted out for the misuse of the word hall or house) - are on a corner plot, they normally are on land of there own,

What about Crow Lane Hall or White Cross Hall as it was also know, isnt that on the corner of a road junction, a corner plot. and its 1/2amilefrom the Oak Tree, so why shouldn't any older Oak Tree House be on the same spot as the OakTree is, like for like, on the corner of a plot...

I do not believe your old mans story, this isn't saying that I do not believe he told it to you, I am just saying that he could have meant some old shed or barn, and thats all....

AS far as I am concerned, your chasing something that doesn't exist, and Baines just means the site of the building that we now see as the Oak Tree..

Steven Dowd

[She]

She, I would be interested to know where this cobbled road is, which route do you take from Haydock to Newton?

Mike, Im not an expert on Haydock as I have only been there a few times, but I will try to give you the directions to this place from a combo of memory and Google maps.

As you drive (from Newton Direction) into the town centre of Haydock you go down Church Rd/Clipsey Lane.
You need to turn left down one of the avenues here....It could be Grange Valley but Im not 100% sure. If you park up, you can walk through a wood and over a brook/stream.

As you come out onto the fields you will find quite a visible old cobbled road. it may or may not show on a map, but you sure can see it from the satelite images. This path/road directly connects Haydock and Newton Le Willows. I tend to think of Haydock as far away because its a fair drive, but by foot its the neighbouring town and not that far of a walk at all. I think you end up around the Crow Lane/ Swan area. Its an interesting area and has lots of features. When I mentioned this in a post ages ago, Im sure the Steven mentioned that some old hall/ houses (BOS) was in this area and I think maybe the Lodge to it on Crow Lane. Sorry to be so sketchy but this was long ago and I know very little of this. Worth a walk at any rate as the road is old and quite significant. Maybe there is another missing BOS around here. Does this qualify as a BOS Steven?

Never heard the names of the old pubs before and I still think that plotting out what old pubs/houses/halls where in what place and called what name from an older long gone Newton is fascinating and merits its own topic area.

[Steven Dowd]

There's references to at least three ale house's in Newton (possibly the High St) around the mid-17th century; Spoilers, Heapys and Rothwells. I wonder if any of these may of been the Oak Tree.

Hi Mike, where did yousee these names.. I am not sure I have ever noticed them before, maybe I have just read over them without noticing..

Steven Dowd

[Podstar66]

She,
I believe the road/path you describe, is known locally as 'The Pads'

Steven,
I have read that on the tithe maps, Pink buildings meant they where inhabited, and Grey meant they where uninhabited.
Which I guess would generally mean that the Grey buildings would be buildings that were not used for living in, so could well be barns, sheds, outbuildings etc
BUT a house that was maybe in a such a state as to be unfit to be lived in (like for example Newton Park Farm), at the time of the tithe survey, could equally be shown in grey could it not, as there was something there to record, it would have to be noted down. And though it was a house (and would normally be shown in Pink), it was not being used by people to live in, so is indicated by being coloured grey.

Pod

[Steven Dowd]

Hi Pod

I don't think that they would make such a consideration, otherwise they would have to then start to mark uninhabited or vacated / empty houses as well

I think they would be using the tithe, to match to the tithe schedule, and that the colour is the 'general use'

I doubt you will find for example a grey coloured house, which on the tithe schedule it says croft uninhabited

I can accept that ruins, might be considered uninhabited, but again their status would probably be as House and red, and not as Barn or Outbuilding, Shed etc and Grey.

I think its probably able to be said that all Red buildings are Houses, and Grey are sheds, out buildings and barns...

Before anyone asks, I do not know what an industrial building was, and maybe the odd few all black buildings on the tithe are to mark Stables, I do not know, but the odd few black ones are generally all very small shed / stable sized buildings and nearly always directly associated with a larger red buildings.

The grey building which Bob recoloured and asked the question just sems to me to be a Barn, and a part of the same group of Barns that later exist around a courtyard on the 1923 // 33 maps in the same place, not sure what date these were demolished, I suppose it could be that these other barns and farm buildings being already demolished by the time Bob talked to the old man, are what the old man was referring to, they exist on the 1923/33 maps but not now, so It depends on what they looed like and when they were demolished..

Steven Dowd

[Podstar66]

But the point is, they are distinguishing between buildings.

They colour Pink for those that are Inhabited, and those in Grey for those that are Uninhabited.

They are not really distinguishing between a house and a barn when using the colours, just whether the building they are recording is occupied/being lived in or not.
It is just that most of the buildings in Pink will be houses, as that is what most people would live in, and barns etc would be in Grey because most people do not live in a barn.
And though it would be fair to say in general, that Pink is a house and Grey is a barn, it might not always be the case.

Based on that, a once substantial house, now in a state of ruins and being used to keep cattle in, could well be coloured grey for uninhabited, when formerly it was a house that was lived in by people.

The people taking the tithe could only base their colour choices for buildings on what the situation was at the time of the survey, and not whether the house now in ruins used to be lived in 30 years ago, but now the family keep their cattle in it, as they built a new bigger house for the family etc.

On the census returns, though a property is uninhabited, it is still recorded, between those that are.

I am not saying you are wrong, just that it was not accurate to say Pink are houses and Grey are barns.
The books on the tithe surveys that you can read on Google books etc, define the colours to mean Inhabited or Uninhabited, not houses or barns.

Pod

[Steven Dowd]

Hi Pete

They couldn't really do what you have said, because otherwise they would have had a record for the use of a building that was wrong

The Tithe Map and Tithe Schedules are for Taxation purposes, so if they made the colour of the map at that time as grey for a building that was actually a house, just because at that time noone lived in it, it might be an issue later when someone at a council or government person looked at the map, to gain detail on the taxable class of that property..

I know that the schedule lists owner and renting person, but I think thats incidental, to the colour that the building is shown, because they would know that owners change, and renting people change, but that the taxable class for the building would always be 'as a house' or as a barn etc.

The Map is the constant in the history of the tithe schedule, rateable values for many years would have been based on the boundries setout on the map, there is probably many tithe schedule list updates available, that will all relate to the same map, which list the latest owners, but the general use colouring I do not think would have been grey for a house that was unoccupied, otherwise how could you use the map, even one week after it was made?

Steven Dowd

[Steven Dowd]

I just did a bit of googling on tithe map colours. the Cheshire website, who's online mapping system is probably the best available says this

The tithe map
The tithe map shows where each plot numbered on the apportionment is located. Guidelines for the production of these maps were drawn up, but these were generally ignored. Nevertheless, dwelling houses are generally coloured red, other buildings black, while trees are usually drawn to indicate woodland and water features are coloured blue. Roads are generally coloured pale yellow and are included, along with such features as canals, even when not subject to tithe.

So they say Red is for a property that is a Dwelling, they do not say inhabited or not. They have other buildings as Black, not saying what type of other buildings

The Norfolk Council website has some more detail on their pages...

Houses - When colour has been used on the maps, inhabited buildings are usually shown in red and uninhabited buildings in black. On uncoloured maps houses were made more prominent, usually by heavier shading or solid black filling.

Water - The sea, rivers, streams, lakes and ponds are shown by the use of blue colouring or outlining.

Roads - Public roads are often coloured brown.

Hedges and fences - These are sometimes shown by pictorial symbols. The symbols may point to properties and thus indicate ownership of the hedge or fence.

They have inhabited as Red and uninhabited as Black, they do not state anything concerning barns etc

Surry Council say this about their own tithe maps..

The colour pink on tithe maps is used to indicate an inhabited building.

Outbuildings are coloured grey.

Essex Council have this on theirs...

Houses are usually coloured red and outbuildings and barns coloured grey

We Have Red and some small Black properties, and a large amount of Grey properties.

All we can do is to check against things we know to be Barn or other none house use.. As far as I can see, on our Tithe Map, barns and also some of the known purely business premises, or semi-industrial buildings, such as Newton Mill, the Barns at Newton Hall and also the Conservative Hall besides Newton Station are all shown in Grey, with only actual houses as Red.

Steven Dowd

[Podstar66]

I just posted something but it has not shown up, it was lengthy and I cannot remember exactly what I said.
Oh Well. I will have another go.

So it is like I said,
Red/Pink = Inhabited, Grey = Uninhabited
Which will equate pretty much all of the time to Red for Houses and Grey for Outbuildings/barns/Industrial use etc.

The survey was only really interested in whether a building or dwelling was Inhabited or Uninhabited, not the nature of the structure.

If they lived in a barn, would it be Red or Grey ?

The point I was trying to make was that the tithe map survey is only a snapshot in time of that moment it was took.
A house in 1800 may have become ruinous, and not lived in for 30 years, and so stripped of useable things like windows roof beams etc, and now only fit to be used as a cowshed. Just 4 walls , no roof, no windows etc.
So that by 1839, the surveyor would mark it down as Uninhabited ( and so mark it Grey ). He will not see it as a house, or Inhabited ( so mark it Red ) because at that time it is Uninhabited, and is only occupied by cows.

We look at the maps now, and only see Red and Grey, Houses or Barns(whatever).
We do not know that a barn on the map may have been a house (or dwelling) 40 years before the survey.

As to the map being wrong a week later. That may be true, but if they built 10 houses or barns after the survey map was made, then it would still be wrong, and have nothing to do with whether or not they coloured a building this colour or that.

Some enterprising person could do a 'barn conversion' and start living ( Inhabiting ) in what was once a barn ( Grey ) on the survey, so to all intents and purposes it is now a 'House' ( Red ).

Pod

[Steven Dowd]

Pete,

I agree, the use could change, but in a row of terraced houses, I do not think they would have marked number 16 as grey just because noone lived in it..

So the item which Bobs been refferring to, which at first he said was on the High Street side of the road at Crow Lane/High Street, but which now he says is on the back of the Fair Brother Farm are both coloured Grey, and since the Fairbrother Farm is actually named a farm, its reasonable to say that the Grey building is the Barn

Bob recoloured the Grey Barn in the image he posted giving it the look that it was a house, my point is, that I do not believe this is the case, and I still think its just a Barn

We have got to give the surveyors for the Tithe survey some credit, they must have been able to see what was a house and what was not, its Grey, so its a Barn or out building...

What I am saying with regards to Bobs whole suggestion, is that I do not believe there is an older version of the Oak Tree House on ANY of the maps, they all show the Oak Tree, either as Royal Oak Inn/Hotel or Oak Tree Inn/Hotel.

The arguement which Bob puts that no big house of substance or Hall would be on a corner is daft, because we have Crow Lane Hall, on a corner, on the same road but further down..

Bobs reading Baines text, as being two Newton Hall sized Houses, both as being timbered Halls, and not taking into account the other texts that we have, which actually have more detail than Baines. and which say that the current Oak Tree replaces an older building most probably on the same site, even so, none of these texts specifically state that the older property was a Hall, even Baines does not say Hall.

And relying on the old man in the pub story to me seems daft, how old was the man, how far back could he possibly remember, after the 1839 tithe, more out buildings were built around a courtyard behind Fair brothers Farm, they show clearly on the 1923 and the 1933 map and these two new buildings appear to have been built between the drawing of the 1891 map and the 1908 map, its more than likely these buildings, were already long gone before Bobs old man in a pub converation, and these could well be the old timber building that once stood behind the Oak Tree

Steven Dowd

[Podstar66]

Steven,

I wasn't trying to make a case for Bob's theories ( sorry Bob )

I was just saying that because it was recorded as a house on the survey does not always mean it was a house before the survey. That changes of use may have occured, that may disguise what we see it as now.

My point of these posts was not to say that Oak Tree Hall was where the Oak Tree pub is now.

It was just a general comment about how the tithe survey should not be taken as 100% that a building shown on the map of 1839 as a barn/outbuilding etc could not ever have been anything other than that. That it is not certain, and only that in 1839 it was a barn/outbuilding can we say it was with any degree of certainty.

Prior use of a building that may have been altered structurely so much, that its very use has changed, by the time of the survey, cannot be ruled out, is all I was trying to get at.

Pod

[bob]

Steve, i said an old guy told me - i didn't say he was there, in fact only an hour ago i was on common road and told my grandson that there used to be a racecourse behind these houses, i don't remember it (although the wife would say i might )
and as i recall Crow lane hall was probably the same distance from the road as that grey building was, and it was not on a corner, it had a large yard in front of it,
so - Steve, you not happy with Golborne park as a possible site of oak tree house,
your not happy with the grey barn/house,
i am going to move over the road now, if your happy with the Oak Tree pub being the site of the Oak Tree House,
have you got any more info to support that.
it would be nice as an history forum to work this out and say for sure where it was.
Bob

[Steven Dowd]

Bob,

I haven't any other info to where the old house was, noone apparently has, what we do have is text which says it isn't shown on any maps, and that the current Oak Tree is more thanlikely on the same spot, we also have cole saying that Brooks Square is built on what we previously called Oak Tree Meadow, though I did search the tithe schedule and thet only Oak Tree Meadow I can find is acually on #608 which is higher up Ashton Road between the entrance to Selwyn Jones School and the Farm.

Maybe the names were changed field to field a little bit , before 1839, and that Cole is correct, and the field which Brook Square was built might have originally also have been a field named Oak Tree Meadow?

My point on the grey buildings on the tithe maps, is that you cannot just pick one at random, and say, that was originally an old house before it became a barn.

I do not know, of anywhere, which this has happened this way around, I would suggest that it really only happens the other way around, that an old barn, might be made at a later time into a house, do you know of anywhere that this has happened House to Barn?

Crow Lane Hall was set back no more than 30 feet from the road, and it was on the corner plot, with a road up the side of it.

I do not see, or understand any possible way that you have somehow managed to convince yourself that 'if there was an older Oak Tree 'house' that it was at Golborne Park

what relates the two spots, you didn't just pick it at random, you obviously had some sort of thought process that made you link the two places, I cannot think of anything which I have read that seems to suggest this, so I at a loss to understand how you link the places?

How do you explain this 'Oak Tree at Golborne Park' suggestion...

Steven Dowd

[bob]

Steve, its called exploratory research,
i know you have watched practically every episode of TT and loads of other documentaries,
how many times have they shown that what was believed to be the case was in fact wrong, you know it is hard for me to take Cole seriously , was he making it all up! or just surmising, i don't know as i have not got a copy and never read the book,
i know he did it with the help of Peter Mayor Campbell, who was a sergeant in the local Melishia,
But what else did he write, why are we taking hes word for gospel, what else do we know about him?

the point being if you was now to say - The Oak House was on the site of the Oak Tree Pub, how could you prove it!
so in a way your the same as me, your assuming it was under the Pub, as i said before i am not looking at every house in newton, i am looking North of the town, and looking for places that could have possibly been a site of a hall,
we still do not know where the Barony Castle was, we still are not sure what Castle hill was, the other Missing hall ( forgive the spelling) something like Codeleach hall it Was!, and you say yourself that a plot of land near up Aston road, has a similar name, Oak Tree Medo ( meadow)
we need to get a grip if this is an History Forum and Prove things, before St Helens Council have the chance of destroying everything historic about Newton.
Bob