Missing Castle

[She]

I have a few days away from the site and I am lost. I tried so hard to follow and play catch up with the North side, west side, rowing boat towards Lowton and Golborne side and then I gave up. Doc K was easier! Sorry lads, he was!

I have no idea where the bridge was on this map as I am totally lost.
However I think my contribution to this Newton site is one of an "ordinary person" who cant draw on maps and doesnt know too much about history stuff, but I did play in all of these areas ....like everyday from being a kid. So like many other people (I hope) on this site....(where are you....join in)....I know these places like the back of my hand.

So for the rest of us - lets imagine we are walking from either St Peters Church or Willow Park towards Castle Hill. In modern day times (either which way)- we will get to where the M6 crosses over the brook and we have to walk under that dark bridge (scarey) under the M6 to get to Castle Hill. Dont go there alone!

Are you both saying that before this, there was a bridge that went over the brook to what I call (the other side of the lake)- or Mere Road side?
If I am correct in saying this, then I have been there zillions of times but nobody could ever have done that because these days there is no bridge and the place is murky and muddy and not safe. You simply cant cross this strip of water without a bridge. Of course as a kid, there was a pipe over the bridge. No idea what the pipe is/was. Gas pipe, water pipe. electricity pipe....could be anything. However as a youngster I slid across it to ....."the other side". This was a place few people have been.
This is a very stiff embankment, like a steep cliff. There are pathways and steps littering this area and it is lovely. These are well worn paths. There is also one that circumnavigates the lake that is far too dangerous to walk anymore.
Maybe a safer way to do this in modern “grown up” times is ask the owners of the house if you can walk to the end of their garden and descend the cliff. You will see well cut out and defined routes.
However if the bridge is “after” you have gone under the M6 – I can’t see how that is possible as that is now a lake, but maybe wasnt once upon a time.

I can say there are 2 bridges over this brook. One is to the left (Rob Lane side)...heck I am joining you and Dr K in this now. There was also one father up more towards the Well that Bob describes. It may still be there. It was there when I was a kid so I don’t think anyone would have moved it.
There are lots of bridges really in this area if you explore it. But why? Was it Victorians out for a walk or the remnants of something much earlier? Don’t know....it’s interesting. Please let us normal folk know where the bridge is as I can’t be the only one who played around here................
Speak up y,all....cant be just me!

[Steven Dowd]

Hi She

heres the wider view

newton-le-willows.com 2012-2-20 19-1-17.png

St Peters is the red blob bottom left, Mere House is the red blob right of middle

I have shaded the old lake area a very light blue, and shown how it used to go right round Castle Hill, and towards Dean School and Rob Lane, and that it also went some way along the valley opposite Castle Hill towards the Golborne Dale Railway Bridge.

You can see the small red text top right, this is Old Womans Well, its shown on the Golborne Park side of the stream, the north bank, which is mentioned in the poem, is the side of the stream with the Boat House ruin, which you just happened to photograph and 'explore' some years ago, while trying to catch your wayward dog .....

The bridge on the 1839 Tithe, is across the original stream, which was in these valleys before the lake was flooded, the original stream route is something like the darker blue line that I have drawn inside the lake area. I marked the approx position of the bridge on the tithe map, by the red line, to the right side of Castle Hill

The green line is the old road, which went from St Peters area, to Golborne Park, and which forded the original stream.

The two black lines running diagonal, top left to bottom right, mark the proposed route of the motorway, this map is a 1928 map, which someone has drawn upon, to mark out tithe areas and new house builds, and such as the motorway.


Hope this helps locate you..

Steven Dowd

[bob]

As this topic seems to be fading away i though it may be time to throw another candidate in to the fray
whilst looking over and over old maps and Arial pictures, and of course searching through 8 Gig of files, i have come across something i would like the forums views on, the site may be an old marl pit! it may even be some sort of old water reservoir!
looking at the old maps from 1745 i can see that Algreave area may have connections with Belgian wordage, i was mainly trying to disprove that Wargrave does not in fact derive from Algreave, yes it sounds similar but there are many words like that, anyway my point is that i will try and prove that a Norman Round Tower may have stood on this point i am going to show below, if not i am willing to accept it may even be another Windmill Hill or again the remains of a barrow similar to Windmill Hill,
Ok, here is the area in question - it is an Arial picture looking north over Old Hey i think its from the 30s when several pictures where taken of Newton, you can see Old Hey and above it the section of land that has a dark spot in the center,
Question is, anyone know what used to stand there, as something made that mark?

air view old hey2.jpg

Next here is a dual shot of a snippet from the 1973 Arial picture, it is of that section probably used by the builders of the new estate, at first nothing can be seen but if the middle is enhanced several times, a small round image can just be made out in the middle,

site2 b.jpg

it seems to have a line going to it from the south, and tiny squares emanating from it at 3 points,
so, could it be the site of a large cement hopper?
well if we look at the very old map again enhanced and to save time i have put it in a dual shot, it seems as though around 1831 and possible 1745 there was a round section of land being used! But for what?

site 2 3abjpg.jpg

Could it have been the local pinfold?
or could it have been something like this Norman Tower -

3a.jpg

Or the remains of a medieval Windmill like this one hidden away north of Wigan -

Harrockswindmill.jpg

or maybe an older Wooden windmill? who knows,
here is the 1745 with the 1849,
Steve! i will be upset if you do not tell me its a natural lump of Redsandstone

allgreave.jpg

Bob

[Podstar66]

Bob,

Your aerial photo is not from the 1930s, as it shows part of the Bradlegh Road estate, opposite the Cottage Hospital.
I have seen the same aerial photo with a c1966 date given. I would guess that would be about right, maybe even a tad later, possibly c1968. That part would have been the first part to be built, so it is probably 'brand new' at the time of the photo.
The later c1972 aerial map, shows all of the estate in place, and looking unused, so again this must have been pretty much brand new in the photo too.
I remember most of the southern half of Bradlegh Road estate being open rough land, and I was born in 1966, so I guess anywhere between 1968 to about 1970 for my memory of it being open land.

Pod

[bob]

Hi Pod, yes your right, don't know why i thought it was from the 30s, the quality of the picture is very 60s isn't it,
also noticed tonight the the field tithe name is Upper Glade field! i can not think of another field around here with a similar name,
wiki says, glade means a clearing in a wooded area, and as Newton is reported around doomsday time as having TEN miles of forest, i wonder why that area should have been named glade?
Bob

[She]

Just doing some genealogy research (on a very rainy day) and found this so decided to add it here.....

In 1284, whilst Richard was prior of St. Oswald's of Nostell, Robert Banastre obtained licence for a chantry in his manor of Rokeden in Newton,

from http://www.archive.org/stream/cu3192408 ... 9_djvu.txt

It seems that many chantrys built onto the side of manors houses and castles, could evolve into churches in their own right with the passing of time. So did the Baron of Newton live next to / on top of ....St Peters Church and is this the early history of this church?

I accept it does not fit in with Dr K,s witness statement, but it does tick a lot of other boxes.....

http://www.buildinghistory.org/buildings/chapels.shtml

[bob]

Just in case anyone thinks they are going mad, as there are some posts missing
i posted about Golborne Hall, we decided it was worth a topic of its own,
click here if you are looking for it.
http://newton-le-willows.com/history/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1968&sid=619f95077f5753b46664bbce167a9ea2
bob

[Steven Dowd]

I thought I would post this photo of Castle Hill, its one I have scanned from Geoff Simms photographic collection.

castle-hill-looking-across-lake-from-before-m6-was-built.jpg

Its taken from the opposite side of the lake, from the Mere House side, looking across at Castle Hill, just visible in profile, it also shows a line across the hillside which is the route of the old footpath, this biew isn't available any more, as the M6 motorway has been built right across this area of lake

Steven Dowd

[bob]

Steve, noticed in that picture the track is probably the one leading to what we call the soggy bit!
also i think you can see some dig marks on the hill, but this photo would have been taken more than 50 years after,
next , there are some building in the back ground, wonder what they where.
bob

small ver castle hill.jpg

[Steven Dowd]

Hi Bob

I sent a bigger image by email did you get it

?

The track, will be the end of the one that ran across the field, higher up than the boggy bit yes, its the old pathway route shown on the old maps,

Yes i believe the scar is another of sibsons dig scars.

I think the roofs, if thats what they are, could be the roof of Golborne Park House or its buildings.

There is also a tree thats mixed in with those and the mound.

I have another view,across the lake, pretty much taken, from the boggy bit, which I think looks at the point which this Castle Hill photo is taken, Ill post it in a short while.

Steven Dowd

[bob]

Hi Steve, yes i got the email, in fact the picture above is from it, cheers
bob

[Steven Dowd]

Bob,

I think this view, shows the boggy area of the side of the current lake, with water in it.

lake.jpg

on the opposite side, is the grassy slope which is where the M6 Bridge now crosses the lake

cliff.jpg

In this enlarged section, you can see that to the right of the grass slope are sandstone cliffs, these are by Mere House, there is a text which mentions a deep quarried hole in this area of the valley, which existed before the lake, and from which the stone for i think the St Peters 1831 rebuild was taken, so maybe these clean cut cliffs mark the spot of the quarry for the St Peters stone.

Sent you this one as well by email.

Steven Dowd