Legh Family History

[She]

That map/ info looks very interesting Bob and yes for sure, I will try to drive over and see if I can get any photos.

Since Ive been looking back at all this older genealogy stuff, Ive picked up a real snapshot of what life was like back in 10th to 17th century Lancashire. Geneaology of course is easier amongst the Royals and noble families because inheritance was everything in their world and so they plotted their family tree's very well.

I have always been aware since schooldays that the Normans invaded England along with William the Conquerer in 1066. However until recently I had no idea how much of an invasion this really was. They seemed to have changed, overturned,took possession of and dominated everything in their path.This was an invasion of a cataclysmic level and must have terrified the local residents who lived and farmed in the area pre 1066. It appears that lands were siezed and awarded to a few privalaged Noman Barons and that their families controlled the local area afterwards with brute force.

All the Norman families of the time intermarried and interbred because they formed a sort of Norman ghetto society and didn't want to mix their blood with the local residents who they controlled and subjugated. Of course as time went on and some of these noble mansions crumbled or the profit from the lands was drunk or gambled away (as in the case of my Norris forebears) - the barriers broke down and the Normans started to mix with the locals. I would imagine that if anyone dug deep enough, everyone would find a sprinkling of Norman blood. I was born a Norris (De Norreys) and so most of what I have in my veins seems pure Norman, so no getting away from it. But none the less they were tyranical and I am shocked to see how bad some of these guys were.

It seems that many of the great mansions, halls and castles were once under Norman rule.So if investigating any of the once large moated halls of the area, looking at the local Norman genealogy may give valuable clues.

Back to the Molyneux family, from this site I found more facts about them - http://davenation.com/gene/molyneux.htm

XIII. RICHARD MOLYNEUX fought at the Battle of Agincourt, held several important local offices by royal-appointment, and was the last of the family successfully to oppose the growing power of the Stanleys. He married Helen Harrington, daughter of Sir William Harrington of Hombie, Lancashire. They had two daughters: Anne and Margaret. Richard's second wife was Joan Haydock, daughter of Gilbert Haydock of Bradley, Lancashire and widow of Sir Peter Leigh Knight of Lyme. Richard and Joan had eleven children: Richard, Thomas, John, Robert, Henry, Gilbert, Edmund, William, Catherine, Genett, and Elizabeth.

Richard descended from yet another chap who came over on a boat with William the Conq-

I. VIVIAN DE MOLYNEUX and his brother, Captain William Molyneux, were the soldiers, men-at-arms under William the Conqueror, coming to England in 1066. Vivian had two descendants: Adam and Richard.

[bob]

This is one of the reasons i have started to discover the true history of England,
we are told so much guff at school level, in fact another word for it could be propaganda,
if you read between the lines of this next clip you will see that our country was already involved heavily with the French
at the time Harold took the throne, even his brother Tostig wanted him out,
the throne was promised to William, and there must have been a reason for that, Harold was only king for 9 months,
when William came to get what was hes,
You have to think, why and how could a few thousand men over run a entire country?
the simple fact is they didn't, they was welcomed by the locals as our troops where in 1945 by the french,

Harold II (c.1020 - 66)
Harold II The last Anglo-Saxon king of England, Harold held the crown for nine months in 1066 before being famously killed by an arrow in the eye at the Battle of Hastings while trying to repel the Norman invasion under William the Conqueror.
Harold succeeded to his father's titles in 1053, becoming the most powerful man in England. Titles for his three brothers - Tostig, Gyrth, and Leofwine - swiftly followed. However, in 1065 the Northumbrians revolted against Tostig, their earl. Bowing to rebel demands, Harold relieved Tostig of his title, safeguarding his own position but turning Tostig into a bitter enemy.
On his deathbed, King Edward the Confessor had designated Harold the royal heir, but had previously promised the crown to his cousin William, Duke of Normandy. William's claim was strengthened when Harold, shipwrecked on the coast of Normandy, promise to support William's claim - albeit under some duress. Nonetheless, this oath was used to secure Papal support for an invasion when Harold assumed power after Edward's death on 5th January 1066. Crowned the next day, Harold was immediately threatened with the rival claim of William, as well as that of Harald III Hardraade, king of Norway, and the potential threat from Tostig.
In May Harold mobilized his fleet and army against an expected invasion by William, but had to use them to repel Tostig's raids on the south and east coasts. Running short of supplies, he dismissed his men in early September, leaving William free to cross the English Channel unopposed. Tostig and Hardraade joined forces and invaded England the same month, but were defeated and killed by Harold at Stamford Bridge, near York, on 25th September. Three days later William landed in England. Harold hurried south, but his men were ill-equipped, untrained and tired. He attacked William near Hastings on 14th October, and in an all-day battle the king was killed, along with his brothers Gyrth and Leofwine.

The funny thing is that recently i was talking to Mark Olly and he was sort of suggesting the same thing about the Romans, in fact he was talking about the possibility of doing a program about it, when we saw program on the same subject by Time Teams Francis Pryor, he also states that we was never invaded we invited people in,
so i will be watching a new program called the Roman invasion of Britain , showing on the 15th,
yes it goes a lot deeper than i can write here, as this is a topic about the Legh family, and its a local Newton site,
so i wont go any further.
Bob

[She]

"Invited people in" may mean more than one thing Bob - but it is an interesting thought provoking idea. Am I on the right tracks here? I guess it could be similar to me being a property tycoon and having lots of land, farms, cottages all over the UK. On my tod, I can't possibly manage them- so instead I invite local estate agents to give me a quote so they can manage them on my behalf. Therefore the landlord that the tenants pay their rent to and see as being the person managing them, isn't actually the owner of the property - but does appear so to the locals and gets a wage out of doing so.....maybe back then it was replayment in kind?

If I am on the right tracks, then maybe it was the Royalty of the time who invited the Normans in do you think? Perhaps the Norman Barons could manage England better than the English Kings & their underlings could?
I have always been taught that land and halls were snatched away by evil Barons. Speke Hall was once the dwelling place of a powerful Saxon family and it is my belief that the Le Norreys were given this by Billy C and kicked the Saxon family out. I do know however that some of the higher up Normans married into high ranking Celts and Saxons, to try and gain influence and power that way. I think it was the lower down noble men that maybe stuck to their cousins and half sisters.

Back to the Leghs then - maybe there was a reason they changed their surname to what I believe to be a Saxon name. Maybe they didn't want to stand out as "De Venables" which is so very Norman. My own family changed theirs from "De Norreys" to Norris. I wonder why? Many of the Barons also seemed to name themselves after the local areas in which they lived - which I presume to be typically Anglo Saxon place names - such as Haydock, Tyldesley, Atherton, Bolton and of course Legh as in High Legh. Did they want to shrug off their Norman connections???????????????

[bob]

Hi she, i did say i wouldn't press this side issue much, but it does prove links to Newton as you will see,
first this web page tells about the first Earl of Shewsbury (Montgomery),
and the second page tells you who that Roger the Poitevin is (Roger de Poitou) and we know who he was,

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rotherhamweb.co.uk%2Fh%2Fshrewsbury.htm&ei=bmtbSueYLt3LjAfTl-Ea&usg=AFQjCNHs4nFbj_cZ4Lj0RYWhdd3EyogKNw

and the second -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_the_Poitevin

bob

[She]

Sorry Bob - I missed your post re my Walton Hall pictures -

Hmm seems to be a mix up in Waltons here, you said Walton Gardens, that is in Warrington,
did you not mean Walton Park in Liverpool near to Sefton where there is a Legh connection -
Walton Hall Park
Walton Hall Park dates back to 1199, when Henry de Walton was steward of the West Derby Hundred,
Bob

I am talking about Walton Hall at Warrington. Yes interesting that you mentioned the dates between the picture and the Halll. Yes I guess portaits must have been collected from elsewhere and there are lots on interesting pictures there.