More Just for fun

[bob]

Sorry Mike, i didn't think this was suitable for your Thread, and i didn't want to hijack it.
Yours is More about People in recent History, i thought maybe for the others that like ancient History i would give them chance to have a go at these mysteries.

items we still need to find out about Newton -

1, Where was the 1000 dead soldiers killed at Red Bank Buried?

• 2, Just who killed who at the Bloody Stone, and what was he doing there?
• 3, Was there ever a building on the site of Newton Hall before the one we know.
• 3, Castle Hill, can we say for sure it was ever a Motte, can we ever say for sure it was a Tumuli?
• 4, Was there ever an ancient cross in front of St Peters Church.
• 5, Was Lady hill just part of a Ladies Walk built about 1680, or was it a Barrow?
• 6, Was there ever such a building in Newton as the Barony Castle, or was it just any old building used as a court leet.
• 7, was there ever a Roman building in Newton? or a bridge.
• 8, Did G Stephenson, ever own or rent a cottage in Newton?
• 9, Do we know the name of the Celtic tribe for this area? (are you sure)
• 10, Who Ruled this area before 1066.

take your pick.
Bob

[carol Fahey]

No.2 The Bloody Stone.

Legend as it the Welsh Knight who was married to Lady Mabel Bradshaigh is supposed to been killed by her husband Sir William on his return from the Holy war. in January 1323.
But it was Sir William Bradshaw who was killed there on 16th August, 1333. Hawkstone Edge in Newton le Willows.

Hawkstone Edge is a word no longer used, but edge means boundary.....the bloody stone being near the edge of Deer Park.

[Steven Dowd]

1, Where was the 1000 dead soldiers killed at Red Bank Buried?

• Unknown

2, Just who killed who at the Bloody Stone, and what was he doing there?

• As far as we actually know, No one - bloody stone knight death story was first attached to the local stone by William Baeumont sometime early to mid 1800s and was gloryfied and attapted into local reality after a play at Wigan Little Theatre in the same period.

3, Was there ever a building on the site of Newton Hall before the one we know.

• Yes, but I doubt it was anything like as impressive, probably a small farm house type building, this is proven by the Well found underneath the backwall, and the sandstone cut room under the south wing of Newton Hall that was unknown and not any part of the known Hall.

3, Castle Hill, can we say for sure it was ever a Motte, can we ever say for sure it was a Tumuli?

• I am pretty certain from the digs that have been done, and the location of it on the fording point and the joining of the streams that it was a Motte & Bailey Castle, and I would say this was from the earliest period after 1066, and that the Old Newton was most likely spread out along the sides of the Dean Valley, the Golborne Dale Valley and the Newton Lake Valley, which is why the Motte was central to the whole of the local population, I think that only later was Newton formed, as we know it, and that is why its named 'New'town..

4, Was there ever an ancient cross in front of St Peters Church.

• Yes, not sure it was ever a stone cross, pretty sure it was only a Wooden Cross.

5, Was Lady hill just part of a Ladies Walk built about 1680, or was it a Barrow?

• Both....Not been able to find anything about who landscaped the grounds of Haydock Lodge, but nothing at all about the grounds looks real, White Door Dam is totally man made, Lady Hill forms part of this man made landscape, and is pretty much a central feature to the view when aproaching the old Lodge on the original driveway which the Newton Arch was the first feature you passed

6, Was there ever such a building in Newton as the Barony Castle, or was it just any old building used as a court leet.

• probably Both.... My view is that it was a progression of use from Castle Hill to the Missing old School Building close by St Peters, which was demolished c1843, and that St Peters church is a progression from a Chancel within that Building to a seperate Church c1300 to c1400s.

7, was there ever a Roman building in Newton? or a bridge.

• Unknown, but I would say yes, there must have been. I have photos of the Dean Dam which the exit of the stream from the dam, is through a bridge in the dam which I would suggest has really odd old double keystone feature that I have only seen on pictures of Roman Bridges, I have not heard of any roman finds, pottery in any of the local digs, the other place which I think could be a Roman Bridge, or originally would have been would be Red Bank, to get to the quarries in HGL from the Roman Road. I also think Pepper Alley as a name could be from Roman origin,but this would probably mean the Sankey River would have had to have been navigable at the time from the Mersey.

8, Did G Stephenson, ever own or rent a cottage in Newton?

• Unknown - my thinking is that he might have had breakfast at the cottage, or stayed there once or twice, but thats different to owning or renting, the book says he rode from liverpool each day on his horse along the tracks...

9, Do we know the name of the Celtic tribe for this area? (are you sure)

• I do not know this at all.

10, Who Ruled this area before 1066.

• I do not know this at all.

[bob]

Just who killed who at the Bloody Stone, and what was he doing there?

As far as we actually know, No one - bloody stone knight death story was first attached to the local stone by William Baeumont sometime early to mid 1800s and was gloryfied and attapted into local reality after a play at Wigan Little Theatre in the same period.

Wow, i didnt know that, but are you sure Steve, Carol disagrees!
Bob

[Steven Dowd]

look it up, and see if you can find anything older than William Beaumont, that names newtons Bloody stone

I am not saying that the story isn't an old one, or that the guy didn't get killed, or the mabs cross walk etc etc

What I am saying, and its been said by others, is that William Baeomont first made the mention of a connection in an article in the Warrington Guardian I think, and that after that, when the play became popular, its kinda became local history, a bit like, prisoners were hung at Red Bank......

Steven Dowd

[She]

1, Where was the 1000 dead soldiers killed at Red Bank Buried? DONT KNOW, BUT SUSPECT ON HIGH GROUND TO THE LEFT AS YOU LOOK DOWN HMG FROM A48

2, Just who killed who at the Bloody Stone, and what was he doing there? STEVE IS CORRECT BUT I PREFER THE LEGEND....COULD BE TRUE, WHO KNOWS!

3, Was there ever a building on the site of Newton Hall before the one we know. PROBABLY

3, Castle Hill, can we say for sure it was ever a Motte, can we ever say for sure it was a Tumuli? I HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED BOTH. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE NORMANS MADE USE OF THE EXISTING LANDSCAPE; BOTH NATURAL & MAN MADE & IF THERE WAS A HILL TO BE USED THEN SO BE IT

4, Was there ever an ancient cross in front of St Peters Church. YES

5, Was Lady hill just part of a Ladies Walk built about 1680, or was it a Barrow? BOTH

6, Was there ever such a building in Newton as the Barony Castle, or was it just any old building used as a court leet. BOTH

7, was there ever a Roman building in Newton? or a bridge. NO IDEA, BUT THE ROMANS WERE IN NEWTON AS COINS FOUND NEAR THE VULCAN AND IN MY DADS BACK GARDEN ON WILLOW RD.

8, Did G Stephenson, ever own or rent a cottage in Newton? I HEARD HE DID HAVE A COTTAGE AT KENYON. STEPHENSONS COTTAGE APPEARS AS A NAME AT SANKEY VIADUCT (I think) AND ALSO AT BROSELEY BRIDGE KENYON (now demolished).

9, Do we know the name of the Celtic tribe for this area? (are you sure) WAS IT THE BRIGANTE TRIBE (spelling dodgy on this but it is pronounced as such), THE VARINI CLAN RULED NEARBY BILLINGE.

10, Who Ruled this area before 1066. IM NOT SURE, BUT I BELIEVE THE RECTOR OF WINWICK WAS LORD OF THE MANOR AND ALL LANDS THEREIN PRIOR TO THE CONQUEST. NOT SURE OF HIS NAME. ALSO THINK SOUTHWORTH FAMAILY HAD A FAIR SLICE. WOULD LOVE TO KNOW WHICH SAXON FAMILY OWNED THE JOINT. T

[bob]

Nice answers She!
now i was sort of asking about -items we still need to find out about Newton

We still are getting possible, maybe, don't know, i know there are certain things we will just have to resign ourselves to never being totally identified as positive,
such as which Celtic tribe lived in this area, as many old books differ in opinion, most people just say, oh the north was Briganties!! personally i tend to agree with She! there is evidence of the Siluers tribe holding this area as in south wales, and the Setanti holding the coast a bit further North,
As for Roman, they where her for 400 years, did they ever leave, i mean if some Irish moved here in the 1600s - 400 years ago, suddenly got a call to come back, who would go? the coinage was being used by the ordinary folk, so you would not have to be a Roman to lose a coin around Newton, and yes they must have built bridges and at least one stage post.
Castle Hill, i believe that is was a motte, but i suspect that in 1962/3 some archeologist would have made notes on it maybe even took some pictures, and they maybe sat in an archive somewhere!
Newton Hall as Steve said, evidence of a prior house has been found.
Red Bank Burials, i suspect they are buried under Cop Holt Ridge, BUT a dig could sort that one for sure.
Stephenson, he would have had temporary lodgings all along the track as it progressed!
The Cross, yes it is written that Peter Legh brought the Needle in place of a once Cross,
Who Ruled before 1066, well lets start with who we know, 640 King Oswald, Edward the Confessor, who knows at 1066,
maybe a good research project, i think that question could be answered for sure.
Bloody stone! jury is still out on that one.
Ladies or Ladys walk , we do know that a gardener was employed with 2 other to landscape the place around 1680,
he wanted 60 quid, but the Leghs only wanted to pay £50,
and although i have found lots of Lady s or Ladies hills and walks all over Lancashire, it is clear that it was the in thing to have on your estate at the time, i have yet to find a Book or article on them, any budding writers take note!.
and yes i do believe Lady Hill was at one time a barrow, in fact i will say it was probably more important than Castle Hill, as it seems to be a t a cross roads of lines of Barrows E-W - N-S.

Bob

[She]

Nice one Bob.
When you said who ruled pre 1066, I thought you meant locally. I personally would love to know who owned Newton pre it being carved up by invading Norman barons. I do believe the Rector of Winwick was the head poncho, so I would love to know his name. Do records go that by back?

Re cross roads of lines of Barrows E-W - N-S.

Fave subject of mine, but have all these tumuli/tumulus,s been plotted? We know these folks liked to align them. I know I have mentioned this before, but the path from the Tumulus at Highfield Lane runs directly to St Oswalds Well. The path it torn in half by the M6 now (close to slip road and roundabout) - but I have walked both sides of it and confirm it still exists and is actually not over grown or anything.

So my next question is a) Why. Could this have been a pagan funeral procession route (there is a name for these things but I cant remember it) and b) do we know if footpaths do connet the Tumulus sites. How fascinating if this was true. Keep in mind that many a church was built on a former barrow/tumulus and certainly castle hill connects to St Peters Church via a path. Interesting thought !

If the rain keeps off Im off with my MD to see if I can find any more roman coins in my Dads garden......